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I don’t mind yellow paint as much as it is a sign of the broader issue of big games trying to be idiot-proof. If a game has yellow paint I expect it to be as easy as it can be outside of giving me literal god mode.
I find the whole yellow paint argument to be stupid. Back in the day, level design was so spartan, that if you saw a ladder, you could reasonably infer that you could climb the ladder. Nowadays, level design has become so rich in detail that you need a way to differentiate between objects you can interact with and objects that are just placed for fluff.
I have wasted so much fucking time in games trying to climb ladders that were just decor.
I have also wasted so much time being stuck in games because I couldn’t find that one ladder I’m supposed to climb.
Is that comparable with the amount of time people spent trying to open walls in Wolfenstein 3D?
Unf. Unf. Unfunfunfunf.
You can’t spell unfun without unf.
I used to love using the Wolfenstein 3D level designer to create a VR minesweeper sort of thing … all the walls are doors, but some of them release baddies in a controlled manner and others notsomuch >:-)
I’m so blind when I was playing Control for hours and just couldn’t figure out how to advance. Turns out the way I was looking at the corridor made me blind to the exit on the left and just kept going to the exit on the right. Don’t get me wrong, almost no one has this issue, but I find a good way to get caught doing stupid things.
I believe Control color coded where to go too. But it’s subtle.
I run into that sometimes, where they decide that it’s all the same material right? And then make the floor texture the same as the wall texture, so holes in the wall are completely invisible.
But when they are decor but also interactive, the way it hits tho
Fucking time? So like 5 minutes right? /s
It does leave me pretty unsatisfied, ngl
I don’t think I’ve ever encountered this last issue but a lot of NES games had doors you couldn’t go into but they looked exactly like those you could enter. So infuriating.
Or you can enter them and they just drop you into a pit of water 😡
Thank you! This is something I saw coming as games got more visually detailed and environments got more visually dense. There was this generation of “detective mode”/“spirit vision”/“highlight the important shit” and I remember that in some games it was so constantly necessary to use that to figure out where you needed to go that you spent more time in desaturated rave-land than seeing that actual game.
I feel like decent signposting, guiding the player towards interactables and points of interest, etc is slowly being lost in favor of “toggleable highlight vision” and yellow paint. It’s a fucking video game, use some rim-lighting or a sparkle effect. Point a toppled lamp at the ladder. Either go all in on realistic environments and work harder to direct your players in ways that don’t break immersion or accept some element of “game-ness” and just highlight the objects.
The toggle-able highlight vision fucks with the gameplay flow, and the yellow paint on shit that doesn’t make sense unless an omniscient helper is leading us just breaks immersion and versimilitude for me more than any glowing collectable does.
The Portal games were really good at this. Using the environment to guide the player where they needed to go and then they used lighting to show what you should look at.
Portal 1 did have some red arrows and “this way” signs on the walls, but that actually made sense because there was someone helping the player character out.
Also, we definitely needed to know whether or not the cake was real.
The cake, in fact, was not a lie.
The cake, in fact, was not a lie.
The Doom reboot seems to do a good job with it too. Green lights generally point the way to go.
Imagine a Portal prequel following Ratman’s survival.
…asking Valve to make a third game in a franchise is a tall fucking order!
Or you could argue it’s sparse in detail. If there’s a ladder why the fuck can’t I climb it? Why does it fucking need yellow paint? Can you imagine being new to video games and you try doing random normal things and they don’t work and they you try it again in a different location and it does? It would be infuriating.
For ladders, yes. But take Horizon Forbidden West for example. Most rocks and cliff faces are climbable, but you can’t tell by just looking at them. You have to use your focus, their version of yellow paint, to see where you can and can’t go.
Horizon has yellow rope…
Lol it also has yellow ledges. That person might be colorblind.
I truly think you might be colorblind. You should see an eye professional.
Dense environments on a screen have this impact. But that issue fades some when you are immersed in them in VR. Your spatial reasoning kicks in better and things become more intuitive. On a flat screen it becomes an ever moving eye spy/where’s Waldo thing in some ways.
Not really a “solution” just an observation from a VR head.
And it doesn’t fix “disabled” objects like things you expect to be able to use, but can’t due to gameplay/design reasons.
I liked Day9’s take on the matter.
I love exploring the levels in some games like ‘Half Life’ and ‘Deus Ex’. One of my favorite game moments was when I put the hovercraft in HL2 up on the wooden platform three meters from the ground. Then I promptly fell from that platform myself and had to finish the watery level on foot, including running away from the firing helicopter.
Others have given probably similar examples, but Arin’s Mega Man X video both agrees with you and the post. It points out how some games used limited options in games (and showing examples before you died) to train you on ways the game works without the yellow paint. Your point is that games today don’t have the same limitations such as only travel right at the start, whereas the video points out there should be environmental designs that lead you to the answer.
With fully free 3d environments it’s harder to do that without yellow paint though.
I’d like to make a game where it’s your job to use yellow paint to show the hero where to go. You’d have to predict how the level would crumble during the chase sequence. If you did everything correctly you’d get a AAA rating.
Your overall goal is to suck the player’s intelligence up or so.
so a game where you become The Stanley Parable Adventure Line™
yes
That game came to mind first when I saw the comic
Very fitting ending for this discussion too, as I think its message was something like “our destination is wherever we end up” (with Stanley and the narrator making up their own story, with no regards to what the game™ had planned for them).
It was also called the confusion ending :)
quote
“Wouldn’t wherever we end up be our destination, even if there’s no story there? Or, put in another way, is a story with no destination still a story? Simply by the act of moving forward, are we implying a story such that a destination is inevitably conjured into being via the very manifestation of life itself—”
“So we know that each door has to lead somewhere, which means that somewhere at the place where we’re trying to go, there must be a reverse door that leads here! And that in turn means that our destination corresponds with the counter-inverted reverse door’s origin. So, starting from the right, let us ask – will taking the right door lead us to where we’re going? And since the answer is clearly yes, that means the door on the right must be the correct one. Another victory for logic. Onwards, Stanley! To destiny!”
I love these quotes.
lol. Love it. You get to make the Hard Mode level into Easy Mode for the user. That would be a fun game.
That genre is very popular already m8.
Seems like you need to play more strategy games.
You should play Doorkickers.
I think you’re basically talking a modern lemmings or warios woods, and I would totally play it. That AAA rating is so clever haha.
Yellow paint is just lazy level design.
Yes, yellow paint exists to solve a real issue. But many games before it have managed to fix that issue.
Wanna guide the player through a path? Have a guide NPC go before you (might even be the villain in a chase sequence!).
Want to clearly show in which places you can do X thing? Have a clear visually distinct asset that stands out mark those places. Make sure you don’t have similar assets elsewhere.
If the argument is accessibility, just make it an option to turn those special assets bright pink/yellow, or just a much more distinct (even if visually unappealing) asset for higher-budget games.
Wanna show which ledges are grabbable? This may be the only acceptable use case. But even then, there are more discrete ways like shining stones or have the character extend its arm towards it or something. Or just make basically every ledge grabbable. I had no issues in either sm64 nor in the original assassins creed, and neither had yellow paint.
The big reason this shifted was because of how detailed modern AAA environment are. The environments are now richly detailed, which makes it confusing since interactivity hasn’t kept pace with visuals. This required more heavy handed guidance like yellow paint, or interaction prompts on objects.
I think classic WoW is an interesting thing to study in comparison. It doesn’t even tell you what’s interactive at a glance, but it’s clear because there are so few objects in each area.
Please don’t make me follow an NPC. That’s worse than yellow paint.
It can be fine if (and ONLY IF) the NPC matches your speed. There are other ways for it to be annoying, but that’s the easiest one to fix & the source of most of the annoyance IMO.
Having an NPC go in front is way worse lmao. I hate little semi cutscenes where it zooms in on some NPC jumping across platforms or climbing up ledges, that’s way worse game design than having a subtle visual cue for ledges you can grab onto. I mean it doesn’t need to be as blatant as yellow paint, but just recognizable distinguishable feature if you’re gonna have a jump and hang mechanic on some ledges but not others
All of your suggestions are good but situational. They don’t apply as a solution that works for an entire big open world game with thousands of places to highlight.
Humans used to be smarter
When was that?
Thousands of years ago, when we were smashing rocks to make knives, probably.
We’ve never been an intelligent species as much as a dumb branch of apes that happen to give birth to some glitched individuals with a form of intelligence every now and then. But jesus fuck, the last years, with the unversal internet access that we achieved, we became dumber than ever.
I play so many old games I practically forgot about yellow paint, but the last AAA I played didn’t use that or minimaps, and despite being mostly linear, it was an absolute chore in an overly detailed environment.
Ya don’t need literal yellow paint like in some games (although I know there’s reasons for that) but lighting is really a nice way to do it. And in either case it’s better than waymarks and big ol’ arrows pointing the fastest route to a quest target, I still want to use my brain a little after all!
FFXVI doesn’t have a minimap because the director thought it wasn’t immersive to have one. So now I’m opening the map menu every 30 seconds to figure out which part of the slightly flooded swamp can be walked on. So immersive.
That game made it feel like you were punished for trying to explore.
You knew exactly the game I had in mind, haha. A little yellow paint might have gone a ways with that one… but you know, not literally yellow paint. Lol
People complain about the yellow paint, but have you played more modern games that don’t do that or don’t have floating waypoint markers? Spend 10 minutes looking for where you’re supposed to go because they want you to scale a wall that does not look obviously scaleable all because they did nothing to get your attention to it.
People also complained about, IIRC, Hitman Bloodmoney because it started highlighting usable objects when previously the only way you’d know you could use something was by walking up to it and trying to use it. Since you can’t interact with everything showing what can be interacted with is a huge help.
The newish Avatar game tries to minimise blatant signposting as much as possible and while the level designers/artists obviously did their best, boy is it tough to navigate sometimes. One of the densest natural environments in video games, and a lot of vertical navigation.
Pressing a button to highlight interactable objects is great. im too old to play point and click mini games.
Fr. Maybe some of the younger people just need to play some Point and Click games from the 80s snd 90s where they spend hours trying to figure out what they are missing only to discover they forgot a lockpick in the living room that is basically invisible to the human eye since it’s two pixels in a low res image filled with noise. 🤣
I’m currently replaying Cyberpunk 2077 and while it uses these color codes in some places to help you find alternative routes, you can climb almost anywhere and there were several instances where just having internalized that you can climb (given it having the correct height) will give you the edge in combat or result in you having a better/unexpected angle to a situation.
When they have consistent traversal mechanics like being able to grab ledges you can jump about chest high to it’s not much of an issue. You intuit where you can go pretty quickly once you understand the movement system. But games where everything you can climb is hand crafted and placed strategically to create a linear experience? You either have to make every climbable surface look identical so players easily recognize it as climbable (hand holds in rocks, vines, etc) or put some kind of marking on it (yellow/white/red paint splashes or highlights).
Trying to remember what it was I was playing recently where I came to a dead end and couldn’t figure out what I was missing because the climbable wall in the dead end was a unique peice of geometry and had no hand holds, markings or anything. It was also the first time you come to a thing you can climb so it wasn’t even established that you could ever go vertical.
I have no idea what this yellow paint in games thing is. Never seen it in any game ever.
I remember seeing it it Mad Max:
For the record, the game is great and the paint there never bothered me. I consider it an acceptable break from reality, much like medkits and not wasting ammo when reloading a half-empty clip.
Sometime in the PS3 era, graphics got so realistic that…
Let’s back up a second. Go play Ocarina of Time. OoT has wall climbing mechanics, but Link can’t just climb any wall, it has to be a climbable wall, and that is denoted by a different texture. Most commonly vines, but there’s a ladder-like texture on a wall on Death Mountain and rough brick in the Spirit Temple. And one wall in a Skulltula nook that isn’t textured, but Link can climb it anyway.
The 3D environments on the N64 were pretty rudimentary; big chunky rectangles. A couple generations of console later, you get pretty realistically noisy environments. And you’ll have the exterior of a building or a pile of debris or some other set piece that has a single intended climbable path. Where older games would just…lay out a weirdly rectangular patch of climbing vines, now your character is supposed to climb pipes, ledges, window sills etc.
Not everywhere in the world is climbable, so they started tinting actually climbable surfaces a distinctive color, often yellow, sometimes white. The new Tomb Raider games do this, later Final Fantasy games do this, Horizon Zero Dawn/Forbidden West do it, etc.
The biggest extreme is Mirror’s Edge. The game’s primary mechanic is parkour, so the “paint climbable edges yellow” technique is elevated to the game’s whole aesthetic; the environment is stark white with parkourable elements tinted bright red. Looks cool and stylized while also allowing the player to process the visual information fast enough for a parkour game.
‘Final Fantasy 7’ actually had a funny version of this, since the backgrounds were drawn 2d pictures, but interactive objects were 3d looking distinctly differently.
Some other people have listed some, I’ve seen it in tomb raider, uncharted, dishonored. It’s used in Star Wars, assassins creed, it takes two, split fiction, and tons more.
There’s been arguments online regarding accessible game design and the inclusion of yellow paint as an identifier.
If it is toggleable, I see no issue with this whole thing.
Look at any of the recent Resident Evil games. Intractables, such as breakable boxes or shootable object will be marked in yellow
Some games replace it with giant splatters and smears of bird shit. Delightful.
Try finger
But holeI don’t exactly mind the paint all that much, but I really do prefer more a more “immersive” (for lack of a better word) approach like utilizing lighting to draw your eye to the right path. I don’t mean like a spotlight focused on an area (cough cough crimson desert puzzles) but something like a lantern near the path, or if it’s a decrepit area something like a broken hanging light over the area you’re supposed to go where most of the room is less lit.
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Mirror’s Edge’s environment itself was mostly white but used bright red highlights to guide the player if I remember correctly. So not yellow but kind of the same.
Horizon Zero Dawn is the one that I know that does the yellow paint thing completely straight and in the most obvious way. If it’s not yellow, don’t bother going that way.
Really it’s something any 3D game design has to face, you don’t want players to be too lost and disoriented. It’s just not fun. Lots of (well-designed) games do that by clever use of lighting and environmental clues. When it’s done right you mostly don’t realize it unless you’re looking for it, but it’s enough that you know the right way.
But if it’s too obvious, it can be a bit jarring.
In Horizon it makes sense because the Nora designed all the yellow stuff to be climbable. It’s diagetic. They put yellow paint there on purpose to help you.
It works for Nora territory that’s like a quarter of the map. The paint is everywhere including places that are completely forbidden to them, and only a couple of isolated bannished people have left their land.
And the real problem I have with it is not that it’s not explained, it’s that exploration is frankly discouraged in this game. If and only if you know you’re supposed to go somewhere, follow the trail. If there’s no trail, OR if you don’t have a quest here yet, don’t go, you’re losing your time.
I don’t know about paint exactly, but
- Control uses yellow markings, like tarps, in some places to offer some hints about which ledges the player can reach
- Wolfenstein II uses yellow markings to indicate surfaces that can be destroyed
- Doom (2016) uses distinctive lights (green in this case) to give the player a hint about which jumps are safe
On one hand, I would guess the current talk is about newer games, but on the other hand, it’s not a brand-new innovation, either.
Most modern AAA games with some degree of exploration tend to use yellow (or any bright colour, but usually yellow) paint to tell a player where to go.
